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     Post subject: Asko
    PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:17 pm 
    Curious if any folks who have been involved with GSDs and Schutzhund for a while ever came across a dog "Asko von der Lutter"?
    While I know this dog may be outside the scope of a DDR and Czech forum, I've heard this dog of the recent past mentioned a few times in conversation wth people who saw the dog in real-life and speaking extremely highly of him, and for that matter, quite a bit of the offspring.
    Any comments?
    Thanks.
    SteveB


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:58 pm 

    Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:20 am
    Posts: 288
    Location: South Jersey,NJ
    The one West dog that I want to incorporate his blood into my stock. Excellent producer of temperament and hips....One of the alltime greats of past twenty five years.JMO


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 4:37 am 
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:12 am
    Posts: 2767
    Location: Florida, Usa
    I have to agree with Cliff, Asko is one of the greats of the past 25 years. :clap: :clap:

    Steve

    _________________
    Breeding and training working GSD's since 1962. Member of Sch. USA since 1980.
    DDR dogs.


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     Post subject: Thanks
    PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:00 pm 
    Thanks for the replies. One of the things I heard, anecdotally from people who saw the dog years ago at trials was that, when crated, he was supposedly very barrier aggressive and would snarl and throw himself against the crate (towards people) to the point where he would injure himself. Supposedly he was transported with the crate covered because of this. Also, again, anecdotal, that when measured by a judge, judges were typically very cautious as he'd have a tendency to snarl and such upon approach.
    Now by no means is this an attempt to propagate possible nonsense talk, I just have some curiousity as to whether or not this is something that has merit or not. What I'm learning is, sometimes and with some people, the stories seem to get better and better with time - not unlike fishing I suppose.
    Any honest thoughts?
    Thanks again.
    SteveB


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:58 pm 

    Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:20 am
    Posts: 288
    Location: South Jersey,NJ
    What did they say about what he produced????? He's already owned, so people are interested in breeding to him....so your question should be about what he produced because that is the way he will affect you. And he is one of the most prolific sires of good working dogs in past 25 years. That's what I'm interested in him and his progeny for.


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:07 am 
    Forum Moderator

    Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:12 am
    Posts: 2767
    Location: Florida, Usa
    SteveB,

    To that behavior I would normally say "nerve problem" but the story has no merit b/c no airline would ship a dog with the crate covered up, too much of a liability.

    The story about the breed survey I would say the same "nerve problem" but again he passed the survey which means the judge had to have checked his teeth and examined his testicles.

    Final conclusion> Jealous breeders that are probably pissed off at what this dog has produced. :feuerteufel: :feuerteufel:

    The epitome of a stud dog would be to produce better than himself. I wouldn't care if a dog had 3 legs if he produced
    absolute top progeny. :respect: :respect:

    Steve

    _________________
    Breeding and training working GSD's since 1962. Member of Sch. USA since 1980.
    DDR dogs.


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     Post subject: Thanks
    PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:11 pm 
    Regarding:
    "What did they say about what he produced?????"
    -I was told awesome dogs, but half of what he was.
    I think I see the persons talking really thought alot of him, but just probably had a tendency to blow things out of proportion as a form of praise - not realizing that the good and bad go along with that.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience.
    SteveB


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:05 pm 

    Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:20 am
    Posts: 288
    Location: South Jersey,NJ
    Steve,
    As I'm sure you know all dogs produce variance because they are only half the equation....and I agree with Steve that under normal circumstances I would raise my eyebrows in reference to nerves if I heard that report. But in this case, this dogs track record is too consistent over an extended period of time. Of course he will throw receesives from time to time as will any dog....but right now he is the only West dog (maybe Eiche also with Mike Diehl) that I want to mix with my program.


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:16 am 

    Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:26 pm
    Posts: 204
    Location: Illinois
    In western working lines, Asko is one of the pillars over the last 10 yrs IMO. His progeny are excelling at international levels. He has the top # of offspring in the BSP for several years now. He himself just passed away at 14 yrs of age and was still siring litters-very good health and longevity, numerous breedings and still held a low ZW. Plus, as stated already, his prepotence is being seen in his progeny who are becoming sought after producers themselves. I have bred to a very nice Asko son-Kway Posthorn- and was very pleased with the results. I used him with a couple of my females-different bloodlines so different combinations. I consistently got excellent focus and intensity, high drives in obedience, full grips, very good aggression while being very intelligent, social, solid dogs. The litters I had with my Fedor daughter( who is related to Eick) were very good, natural schutzhund dogs-the first litter will be hitting the trial fields this year. I also had the pleasure of meeting Jim Lempners dog Mike-Mucke-another Asko son-very similar in traits..that intenstity and focus on their handlers, possesiveness...both will carry anything in their mouths as far as they can get it. I'd love to use Mike down the road. Both males are also KKL-1, good working structure. I hope to carry on those traits in my breeding program with the progeny from my breedings.
    The only negatives I had heard from him in talking to friends in Europe were too watch for 3/4 grips, some nerviness in some progeny at times-but have to remember how many females he was bred to. My experience is that bringing in Asko brought excellent biddability, the drives with focus and that versatility in a working dog that I like.

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    Trish Campbell
    http://www.tritonkennels.com


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:32 am 

    Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 10:28 pm
    Posts: 227
    Location: Nashville, TN and Budapest HU
    I had one of the 1st Asko breedings. Very nice female.

    We also bred to Eick (Emi) and were VERY happy with the results. grips on anything (including the rear of my jeans - try explaing that when you get them repaired :yehnaner: ), focus, HUNT drive, prey drive out the wazoo. Mike loved the male that we got of of Eick - he is a mini me.

    We will be breeding Fannie to Eick this summer and are expecting sam, if not better dur to the line breeding.

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    Sue

    www.k9imports.com


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Sun May 04, 2008 12:48 pm 
    I don't know anything about Asko, but my Kenji is a granddaugther from Cliff vd Lutter.

    What I have heard about Cliff was that he has high working drives, but that he isn't an easy dog


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:39 am 
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    Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:38 pm
    Posts: 1
    Location: Indianapolis, Indiana
    Asko was a tremendous dog and an outstanding producer.
    I've been told by some friends in Germany that this dog got what he got from Dino. Wherever he got it, he passed it on and produced some fantastic dogs. I saw many good dogs from Asko at the 2006 Bundessiegerprufung in Germany.

    My male SG1 Stuka vom Enckhausen SchH3, IPO3, FH, Kkl1, HOT is an Asko grandson through his mother lines. There isn't a drive in this dog that isn't extreme. 100% full grips and rocket longbites. He was the "Helper's Favorite Dog" at the 2008 AWDF. He's also producing very nicely for me including a son that just prelim'd "Excellent."

    Other Asko dogs in the US that I highly recommend in no particular order:
    Jim Lempner's dog Mucke
    Terry Macias' dog Eik
    Bill Kulla's dog Kway
    I want to say there is another, but it's not coming to me.

    Nate Harves
    www.sportwaffenk9.com


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     Post subject: Re: Asko
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 4:17 pm 

    Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:47 pm
    Posts: 639
    SteveB wrote:
    Curious if any folks who have been involved with GSDs and Schutzhund for a while ever came across a dog "Asko von der Lutter"?
    While I know this dog may be outside the scope of a DDR and Czech forum,


    In fact, Asko Lutter is within the scope of discussion of a DDR forum because the top line of his pedigree is DDR. Asko is a grandson of Pascha Glockeneck, a DDR dog.

    Interestingly, Orry Antverpa, who along with Asko, are perhaps the two greatest schutzhund dogs and schutzhund dog producers, of the last 20 years, is a grandson of Robby Glockeneck, half-brother of Pascha. Their common mother is one of the best producing DDR bitches in history, Jana Glockeneck. Both Asko and Orry are great grandsons of Jana. Jana is a direct descendant through her female lines of herding dogs that go back to beginning of the breed, the von der Krone females, who all had HGH titles.

    Jana was bred to the great Ingo Rudingen to produce Robby. Jana was bred to a son of Pushkaß vom Haus Himpel to produce Pascha. Both the Rudingen and Haus Himpel kennels were heavily based on HGH females from the legendary Burg Fasanental sheep herding kennels. In addition, Pushkaß was a son of Bernd Lierberg, who goes back to von Boll lines that originate from von der Krone HGH females.

    If you study bloodlines of great working line GSDs: DDR, Czech or west german, that are doing well in any working or sport venue today: schuzthund, police, border patrol, search, etc., focus on the female lines and follow them all the way to the early 20th century. You will find that their foundation are herding females from the von der Krone, von Boll or Burg Fasanental kennels. Historically, the best breeders in Germany used well known males to set type, starting from Horand, while working ability was retained through the female lines specifically through sheep herding females. Thus, even though we discuss famous males ad infinitum in the GSD community, it was really their mothers that maintained the "goodness" of the breed.


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2008 5:17 pm 
    Let's hear it for the "ladies!"


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 1:02 am 

    Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 5:46 pm
    Posts: 705
    Location: New Jersey
    Nice research Campbell

    _________________
    Lyn
    2 GSDs and a border collie!


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:26 am 

    Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:26 pm
    Posts: 204
    Location: Illinois
    I always like Orry, especially through Tom. The interesting thing is Orry didn't have all that many breedings when you look at it compared to other top producing dogs. Seems like alot of Orry stuff got sold to Japan actually. I see it Orry in many top dogs coming out of Belgium though over the last several years. Look at alot of the WUSV dogs, probably because of Tom-for instance the E, G litter Leefdaalhof.

    Yes Nate, I had heard Asko's mother wasn't much of anything-Dino seems to get the credit.
    Martin Vollrath has an Asko son too I believe...
    Wish Eik was in the midwest, great dog, always a helper favorite. Kway I see and have used in my breeding program. He's also got a great motherline IMO, mother being an Aly daughter..BTW Nate, really have always liked Stuka :)

    _________________
    Trish Campbell
    http://www.tritonkennels.com


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:23 pm 
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    Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:54 pm
    Posts: 493
    Location: Richmond, VA
    Your research is really interesting, Campbell. Why did the herding lines seem to lose favor? Was it a question of the times(industrial revolution-- my historical time line may be wrong)? Other dogs became more popular? Short sightedness? None of the above-haha- I know I'm the dummy in the crowd.

    Sally


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 4:33 pm 

    Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:47 pm
    Posts: 639
    sally johnson wrote:
    Why did the herding lines seem to lose favor? Was it a question of the times(industrial revolution)?


    The answer is yes - industrialization - fewer sheep. In west germany, Karl Fuller of Kirschental seems to be the only one to have followed the old German system of using sheep herding females to retain working ability while breeding to showline males for type. I believe though that you can still look for the same traits even in GSDs that don't herd sheep anymore, primarily, biddability; intelligence; judgement; mental focus and concentration; long lasting intensity; calm, full grips; love for the work and a deep relationship with the master; and a balanced hardness. I think if you look at videos of Asko, you can clearly see his love for the work, his biddability and his relationship with his handler. People who saw Orry, will tell you he was similar. Both dogs were not known for extreme hardness but were more balanced. A good complement to the extreme hardness that you can sometimes get from Fero and Mink lines, or some of the old border patrol lines.


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:30 pm 
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    Joined: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:54 pm
    Posts: 493
    Location: Richmond, VA
    Thanks-- I'm glad to see that there are some that are going back to herding lines

    Sally


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     Post subject:
    PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:22 pm 

    Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:20 am
    Posts: 288
    Location: South Jersey,NJ
    Campbell,
    Very nice post on the regression of the lines through top herding bitches. i concur with you post one thousand percent and have also felt that Orry and Asko because of the mother lines brought much to the breed. this is one of the reasons i am still waiting to get a pup from Steve's HGH female as you have. Keep those type of posts coming and i will chip in when I can.


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